Wednesday, September 12, 2012
Is Plato a Feminist?
Plato, through the mouthpiece of Socrates, advocates some radical views about woman in Ch 7 of the Republic. In particular, he argues not only that women can be guardians, but that they can have equal duties (more or less) and an identical education. The only exception he makes is for physical difference between the sexes. These views are in stark contrast to a woman's place in 5th century Athens, in which a woman was prohibited from a political life and confined to the domestic household (and had a similarly limited education). Does it make sense to call Plato a feminist (and does it depend on your notion of feminism)? Or does Plato still miss something important about women? Furthermore, have we in 21st century America realized his ideas?
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Women in 5th century Athens can be labeled as one thing: housewives. Many lacked a proper education, were only skilled in household chores, and were married off to an older man. Men dominated the Athenian society politically and economically. For women who wished to tend to men for her entire life… ancient Athens was the place for them.
ReplyDeleteIn the Republic, Plato challenges the accepted role of women in his community. He advocates for the process of training men and women together physically and intellectually. Because of the social structure of ancient Athens, Plato would be considered a concrete feminist for his radical ideas. If not read carefully, the Republic can easily be misinterpreted to display Plato in a feminist light. In reality, he is far from what 21st century human beings would regard a feminist. He might fool us by proposing that women could hold the same jobs and purposes as men and that “innate qualities are split between women and men”(167). Transferring from the realistic picture of a woman cooking and cleaning a household all day to a woman exercising alongside a man for military purposes makes you think, “Plato was all for women’s right”, right? Wrong. The truth is that Plato’s ideas opened many doors for women’s potential, but his belief that women should be shared between men proves that he was no feminist.
In Chapter 7 of the Republic, just as Plato talks up a woman’s potential, he tears her down. If he suggests that a woman could make as a good, if not better, ruler than a man, he soon follows by saying that women are, “innately weaker than men”(168) and that they should have “lighter duties than men”(167). The moment that I decided Plato was not a feminist was when he discussed the ideal martial structure for his community. Plato objectifies women by using them as rewards for a good man. The better the man, the more “rights to sleep with the women more frequently”(174) to spread his offspring. Plato treats the men like a gambler and the women like the money he wins. The more the gambler wins the more money he receives to gain more money and further succeed in gambling. What kind of feminist do you know that believes a man should be able to use an unlimited amount of women at his disposal to provide strong men for the community?
At the time, Plato forms the basis of feminism in the Republic by allowing roles outside of the house for women and a proper education. Today, he would be labeled as somewhat sexist because of his belief that women can be used as a reward for a good man. Personally, I don’t regard him as a feminist because he does not fit the criteria of believing in complete equality between men and women in all areas of society.
In 21st century America, we have expanded on Plato’s ideas by promoting monogamy and discovering that women are able to work in business successfully alongside men. In 2010, the Huffington Post reported that “women are less than a percentage point away from making up the national workforce”. This shows that in today’s society, women have almost equal opportunities in corporations as men. As annoying as it is to hear Plato refer to women as “weaker than men”, he did an excellent job setting up equal opportunities between genders… for a chauvinist.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ella-l-j-edmondson-bell-phd/the-21st-century-workplac_b_462903.html
In order to decide whether or not Plato is a feminist, we must first define a feminist. Marriam-Webster Dictionary defines, “The theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes” (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feminism). While this definition is useful, it is paramount to realize the roles and expectations of women in ancient Greece differ significantly to that of women in the 21st century. We must look at and decide whether he is a feminist based on our standards and/or whether his view would be considered feminist for Ancient Athens. In Athens, the women were controlled by the men and had very little power in society. In the Republic, Plato challenges the role of women in society and makes many claims extreme claims. Plato’s views that women should be educated and given equal opportunity are radical for the times. He proposes a society where men and women work together and are both treated equally. He believes that society will benefit from having women work and have a more active role in society. Plato claims, “Innate qualities have been distributed equally between the two sexes, and the women can join in every occupation just as much as men” (167). While he believes in equal opportunity among the sexes, he goes onto claim that women are, “the weaker sex in all respects” (167). Despite believing in equal opportunity, he still believes the women are inferior and he goes onto describe women as objects. Plato believes that the better man deserves to sleep with more women. Claudia made this great point in her blog and I agree with it completely. At the point where someone views women as property and objects, I do not believe that they can be classified as a feminist. While Plato does not follow the criteria to be a feminist in the 21st century, his views on women are extremely radical and were feministic for his period of time.
ReplyDeleteI think when analyzing this question it is important to analyze it in the context of 5th century Athens. While I completely agree with you that right now, in the 21st century, Plato is definitely not a feminist. However, in 5th century Athens I think he would definitely be considered a feminist. During this time, every man viewed women as inferior and even their property. Plato was probably the first major figure of the time to view women as even somewhat equal to men. By arguing that women should be well educated and have the ability to become leaders means that Plato views women on equal grounds as men. Even in 21st century United States, we have never had a women president. At the point where Plato was advocating for something that has never actually happened in the United States, in my opinion it is fairly clear that Plato was a major advocate for women’s rights in the context of the 5th century. You bring up the idea that Plato says that the women are the weaker sex in all respects, but again, you have to look at his ideals in the context of 5th century Athens. Again, during this time period it can be argued that women were like slaves, while the men were their owners. So while I agree that in the context of 21st century America he is not a feminist, when looking at him in 5th century Athens I would say that he was definitely a feminist. Moreover, I feel that 21st century America has taken his initial ideals and expanded on them completely, and now women and men are essentially equal in all aspects.
DeleteIn attempting to determine whether or not Plato is a feminist, we mist first examine the time period in which he lived. While in our modern society most people would consider Plato’s ideas about women to be commonplace, for his time they were radically different than the societal norm. In 5th century Athens, women were given no rights and were simply responsible for the wellbeing of the household and the children. The idea that they should be educated and involved in the political process would have been considered nonsense by most men of the time. Although Plato would not be considered a feminist by our 21st century, I believe it is fair to say he was quite the feminist in 5th century Athens.
ReplyDeletePlato makes a variety of arguments for the rights of women that were radically different from those of his counterparts. Through Socrates’ dialogues, Plato argues that although women and men are inherently different, and the female sex is ultimately weaker than the male, however women are not necessarily completely inferior. He argues that they are not as strong physically as men, and therefore may not be able to perform some of the tasks that men can. He says, “innate qualities have been distributed equally between the two sexes and women can join in every occupation just as much as men, although they are the weaker sex” (455 b-455c). In saying this, Plato is explicitly illustrating his belief that women are just as able to participate in any occupation as men. Furthermore, he goes on to add that this includes the occupation of being a ruler. Plato argues that women should be able to be educated to become rulers, and that it is possible for a woman to be a perfectly capable ruler of a state.
Even if we are not defining Plato as a feminist by our modern standards but rather the much different standards of his time, this last idea must be examined further. Plato argues that women are fit to be a ruler. It is currently 2012, and America has yet to have a woman as president. Therefore, in this sense, Plato viewed women as even more capable than the majority of our country (or potentially the majority of our country’s electoral votes) does.
Ultimately, it is clear that although Plato would not be considered a feminist in 2012, his ideas about women were radically more advanced than those of his counterparts, and therefore he can be considered a feminist for his time.
I agree with Peter in is assertion that in order determine whether Plato is or is not a feminist, we must first examine the time period in which he lived. During that time in ancient Greece, women did experience a few primitive rights. They were able to participate in religious ceremonies, own slaves, and marry other Athenians. However, women could not participate in elections or own any land; they served principally to produce children and maintain domestic order. Many Athenian philosophers, apart from Plato, believed that what women lacked in the intellectual realm was certainly made for in their emotional realm. Women’s emotions were believed to be strong enough to harm not only others but themselves as well, and therefore it was the guardians’ job to protect women. The role of a woman’s guardian was assumed by the dominant male in her life (father, brother, husband), who had the ability to control all major aspects of her life.
ReplyDeleteIn contrast to these popular beliefs, Plato argued that women did have certain strengths that could be equivalent to men. Plato states that women could potentially be guardians themselves because they express “the innate qualities we selected as the marks of men who would make good guardians.” (456a). Like men, some women are more naturally equipped for guardianship than others; and Plato believes that society should capitalize on this idea. He continues on to argue that in order to ensure that women become efficient guardians, they receive the same education and training as their male counterparts. However, Plato does believe that women are physically much weaker than men. For this reason, Plato argues that women in the same class as men “will receive lighter duties…because of the weakness of their sex.” (457a).
When compared to the beliefs held by his contemporaries, Plato is certainly considered a feminist. He argued that women could take on the role of guardian, when other philosophers believed that women were in desperate need of a constant guardian to protect them from themselves. However, in comparison to a modern feminist Plato does appear to fall short. While his beliefs are not consistent with that of today’s feminists, I would not label Plato a misogynist either. His beliefs are merely a reflection of the time in which they were formed, and should not be discounted. Rather, I believe, he should be praised for his early attempt to bridge the gap between men and women’s rights.